TranceChat Archive, 11/97
Thread: The Way International
This conversation started on Monday - September 22, 1997 at 18:06
16:22 on Friday - June 27, 1997 by jim martin
Just a note to let you all know that I am here to discuss The Way
International past and present.
jim m editor
20:31 on Wednesday - July 09, 1997 by mike duffy
Hello
20:32 on Wednesday - July 09, 1997 by mike duffy
Hello
20:33 on Wednesday - July 09, 1997 by mike duffy
Hello
07:12 on Saturday - July 19, 1997 by JOHN
WHERE DID ALL THE MONEY COME FROM? WAS ON STAFF
AND IN A POSITION TO SPEND MUCHO BUCKS IE WAY
BUILDERS AND BELIEVE ME WE SPENT ANYTHING WE
WANTED NEVER SAW A REQUEST QUESTIONED
20:38 on Tuesday - July 22, 1997 byv mac
does anyone know where pat saunders or jim dopp or jim stutz or
matty tunner are?
21:28 on Wednesday - July 23, 1997 by Cheri
in reply to John-- Where did all the money come from??? 10%!!!
10% ABUNDANTLY SHARE! All those little LEAFS add up SS$S
20:36 on Tuesday - August 12, 1997 by Lamar
Hi... nice to find a space like this. I often wonder about folks I
knew hack in the late 70's and early 80's when I was involved. What
are you up to now? Part of me is still afraid to contact old "friends"
because about 10 years ago I finally accepted the fact that I am gay.
I know the ministry is rabidly homo- phobic and I usually expect
old ministry friends to feel that way. Perhaps that isn't the truth.
How did any of you deal with coming out? Are you in touch with
old ministry friends? What is their reaction? Thanks
20:58 on Tuesday - August 12, 1997 by Lamar
Hi... nice to find a space like this. I often wonder about folks I
knew back in the late 70's and early 80's when I was involved. What
are you up to now? Part of me is still afraid to contact old "friends"
because about 10 years ago I finally accepted the fact that I am gay.
I know the ministry is rabidly homo- phobic and I usually expect
old ministry friends to feel that way. Perhaps that isn't the truth.
How did any of you deal with coming out? Are you in touch with
old ministry friends? What is their reaction? Thanks
09:46 on Saturday - August 16, 1997 by beth
would he interested in hearing from people who were involved as
children and teens, and how that experience has affected you
09:46 on Saturday - August 16, 1997 by beth
would he interested in hearing from people who were involved as
children and teens, and how that experience has affected you
10:01 on Saturday - August 16, 1997 by beth
would be interested in hearing from people who were involved as
children and teens, and how that experience has affected you
13:20 on Tuesday - August 26, 1997 by Galen
I am dealing with a sudeo way follower who is detennined to be a
prophet in my life. He is very militant. How do you deal with that?
21:54 on Wednesday - August 27, 1997 by Kathy Hagen
Would like info on how to pick up TWI music and guitar chords
09:28 on Sunday - August 31, 1997 by deb
I left TWI in '87, what is the deal.. .there's no WOW program now?
Hey, does anyone know whatever happened to Lawrence and Barrie
Lewis?
What is John Lynn up to these days?
I feel for the guy who is afraid to look up old friends because he's
gay. I looked up a some friends a couple of times and one couple
had their own version of a twig going, using all the old PFAL books
to teach the old class. The other one was so paranoid about Tw
that even though we were once good friends begged me not to call
or come around had erased all traces of involvement.
20:05 on Saturday - September 06, 1997 by Bruce Fontain
I've written various newsgroup postings regarding TWI in
alt.support.ex-cult so consider reading and adding your own
comments in that forum as well as this. Fonner member '78-90,
Massachusetts, Mississippi, Maryland.
06:23 on Friday - September 12, 1997 by Lea
My younger brother, he's 34 now has been involved with TWI since
high school when he announced one day that he had "been saved"
my mom said in reply, "from what?" Anyway, all family members
have received a form letter from my brother announcing that he and
his wife are quitting their jobs, selling everything and moving to
Colorado to learn to become TWI ministers. Not knowing much
about this group I was somewhat supportive though cautious with
encouragement, urging him to really consider the ramifications of
his actions. His wife is quite upset but willing to go along. She has
worked very hard to learn english, she's Venezuelan, and has
worked her way into a management position and is not pleased
about throwing it all away. My brother has always been a bit
obsessive about things but usually his obsessions would only last a
couple of months. I received a second letter inviting me to be
financially supportive of his efforts, I'm just wondering how
someone I thought of as being independent and intelligent could get
hooked like this. My brother was a professional musician and
travelled all over the country and internationally as well, the high
school stage band that he was in was even invited to perform at the
Montreaux Jazz Festival in Switzerland hut he has completely given
up music because he couldn't find fellow musicians willing to be
recruited to TWI so therefore they are evil and not to be associated
with. He is very critical andjudgrnental of non-believers and
completely intolerant of views that differ from his. He also
becomes militant and vehement, his eyes get real wide and almost
glassy when he gets started and he is really beginning to frighten
our mother and me. I was hoping to find some way to try to talk
him out of this hut he is determined and is leaving September23.
After 17 years, is there any chance he'll wake up on his own???
Sorry this is so long but thanks for your patience and any advice
you can offer. Lea
19:35 on Sunday - September 14, 1997 by Tom and Mary
We love this page, and have often wondered about ex-wafers. We
would like to hear any of the latest gossip. Together we represent
twenty+ yrs of Way life and have some "Can you top this story" to
tell. Would love to hear from anyone interested in comparing battle
scars. I think we have all reached "Mark and Avoid" status. Take
heart there is life after The Way
11:17 on Tuesday - September 16, 1997 by Arne Strand
I don't understand what all the fwz is about. I was actively
involved in the Way ministry for a number of years in the early and
mid eighties. Those were the greatest years of my life. I left because
they appointed some leaders locally that just didn't have what it
took to be leaders and because the movement got lost for a while in
a production called "athlethes of the spirit". Martindale had found
some metaphores in the Bible related to his great passion,
athlethics, and all of a sudden he started to act as if he was the
producer of a Broadway show and lost his way in a maze of song
and dance. But no other group has in my opinion been so close to
unravelling the Bible as the Way. No doubt the Way attracted some
insecure weirdos who let themselves be brainwashed by their desire
to let others think for them, but that happens to any person or
organisation that has a strong message. You can't blame the strong
for being strong or be supprised to find that the weak is weak.
Some people are just born, it seems, to be followers and sheep.
There are a majority of them in every crowd. And to Lea I can only
say this: Maybe you're the one that is asleep?
02:34 on Wednesday - September 17, 1997 by Angela D'Astici
I am an ex-wayer, and this message is for Arne Strand...You
really show your Biblical ingriorance. The Way cannot and does not
unravel the Bible.
Only through diligent and disciplined study does the "Holy Spirit"
lead, guide, and teach. Not by listening to a bunch of Kenites.
Get yourself a Strongs concordance and a Smiths Bible dictionary...
and get busy..
The veil was rent... do you have enough intelligence to understand
what that means....
It means that God is there for all who ask... so quit following the
Way and start following God...
04:28 on Wednesday - September 17, 1997 by Arne Strand
Dearest Angela. If the guidance of the holy spirit, Gods nature in
us, is all you need in your relationship with God, then what do you
need the Bible for, and what on earth/what in heaven would you
need a concordance for?! Besides, if there is any group of believers
that knows how to use a concordance, it's The Way. The veil is
rent. Indeed. Christ has opened the way to God, and now it's up to
us to get on it. The Bible is the map. The Way International is not
the map. The Way is just, or at least used to be (I haven't been in
touch with them since 1985), a bunch of people who are quite adept
in the art of reading, better than most people, in my opinion. Most
theology-soaked Bible-readers can't even tell the difference
between a father and his son. I still don't understand what the fuzz
is all about.
19:18 on Wednesday - September 17, 1997 by Tom
Way to go Angela!! I'm glad there's a forum to discuss these issues.
Arne- you apparently are still into TWI theology and need to take a
look around. The "fuzz" is about a very disturbed and destructive
group of people, who really think that they have a copyright on
truth. Anybody who says something against TWI or does not agree
with Martindale is a". . . snot-nosed, posessed" so and so. Back in
my early days with TWI we used to pray for people and try to
overcome evil with good. You knowjhat kind of thing.
Unfortunately, that didn't remain the norm, andjudgement
replaced heart. In retrospect and honesty those Way years were
certainly not the best of my life! You need to put some space
between you and TWI. Get a sense of humor and enjoy what God
can do for you now that your mind is a bit clearer. Believe me, it
takes time. However, it is well worth whatever you have to do to
purge your life of all that old Way verbiage, of Way people and
Way influences. Would love to hear from either of you or anyone
else who has the courage to exchange thoughts. For any of you
current Way followers monitoring this page; get a grip, build a life,
take care of your families, get a real job, and you might actually
start living.
02:28 on Thursday - September 18, 1997 by Angela D'Astici
Thanks Tom, Couldn't have said it better.
As "you" are aware poor Arne missed the point. The seed was
planted and it fell on hard ground. The parable of the sower was
never brought to light in a more vivid fashion then to hear Arne's
responce. Wheather by faulty doctrine or false teaching the Bible
(or should I say God's word) "absolutely" instructs us all not to
listen to man. Why? Because man IS fallible. Every Bible is an
interpretation of the manuscripts. Some by many people, some by a
few and some by only one person or man. I'll bet that dear old Arne
has never looked at an original King James (1611 edition) Bible. Or
even seen a copy. Otherwise he would have read the 10 page note
to the readers. I would explain the note here but then Arne wouldn't
have to go look it up himself Ya see arne, with a copy of the King
James and a Strongs Concordance...you basicly have a copy of the
manuscripts. Then once you get to work and study, and at the same
time ask God for help and guildance, you wont need to listen to
another mans interpretation... the (Holy Spirit) not (holy spirit) will
lead, guild and teach you. Unless of course you would rather be
lead by a man.
Well Thanks again Tom, but lets not cast anymore pearls. It is
obvious that God has not yet opened Arne's eyes or ears. We can
plant the seeds, but only God can make them grow.
Ya see Arne God said he would send some strong delusion, that
they would believe a lie... Well wake up and smell the coffee.
May God be with "you" dearest Arne.
04:45 on Thursday - September 18, 1997 by Arne
I agree with you, Tom. Martindale could certainly benefit from
laying aside his cockiness. I had a clash with him myself back in
1982. I had a disagreement with him concerning a non-biblical
topic and his agressive attacs on me at that time taugt me a thing or
two about him. Nor was V.P. Wierwille a man without faults, far
from it. The way he drove around at "the rock of ages" in his open
car waving to the believers like a politician in an election year
while the "Ambassador One" flew over the campus area was to me
utterly tasteless, vulgar and pathetic. And I think V.P. ended up a bit
ofa victim of his own myth. But all these tings didn't really
concern me that much, becase i was never a follower of the Way
International. I never believed in The Way nor in V.P, and certainly
not in L.C.Martindale. As believers we are not to be followers of
men (or women for that matter! ). I was a believer before I ran into
The Way, and I still am, totally independent of the fact that I have
had nothing to do with that group for 12 years.But what attracted
me to these people when I first met them was their love for God
and the Bible and their knowledgw of it.Their interpretation of the
Bible is not without mistakes and flaws, but they approached it with
so much more honesty than any church-person I had ever met. If
you disapproved with a certain interpretation, all you had to do was
to come up with another that was mor consistent with the Bible as a
whole than the one you rejected. That's a beautiful and honest way
to approach God's word, I think.Some Way-people had a tendency
to lose this flexibility, that's true, but the majority of the people I
met was willing to give up any belief they had if it didn't fit with
the Word. Honestly, how many theologians would be willing to
admit that the church council in Nicea in 325 A.D. made a giant
blunder when they invented the impossible concept "the Trinity" to
explain way Jesus said: I and my father are one.How brainwashed
and dishonest must a person be to accept such an outrageous term
as that, and to seriously maintain that that explains anything!
Although I am not particularly impressed with everything
Mattindale has said and done, I can understand his frustration and
his desire to use some juicy expressions to blow away meaningless
theological mumble-jumble such as that. In the fairytale "the
emperors new clothes" by the danish writer H.C. Andersen a small
child is the only one who is not fooled to believe that the vain
emperor, who have been led to believe that his new clothes are so
light and fine that one can neither see them nor feel them. The
whole city is fooled to believe that they can't really see his clothes
because they are woven of such a fine material.The kid is the only
one who says what many had suspected, namely that he is
naked. When it comes to the "trinity" and many other important
issues, only the Way has had the honesty to give up old theological
mistakes and say it as it is: The protestant and catholic churches are
naked.That doesn't mean that every individual in these churches are
screwed up (excuse my french), only that their belief system is
inconsistent. And that's all. Anybody could have seen it and said it,
but The Way was the only group that did. That's why I still have
some affection for them.But it wouldn't hurt them to sound less
cocky. And finally to Angela. I've read the King James version
forwards and backwards a number of times. Instead of focusing on
people and organizations, why don't you concentrate on the Word.
The only thing that matters is the best and most consistent
interpretation of the Bible.And as far as I'm concerned the Way are
closer to the truth than any other group that has given it a try.But
don't start believing in the organization. It is only at best a tool to
get closer to the real thing, Christ. And remember that nobody is
perfect and certainly not L.C.M., but that is beside the point.
14:26 on Thursday - September 18, 1997 by uaar
Arne You didn't answer Angela's question. Have you ever read the
letter to the readers that the authors of the original 1611 King
James 'wrote. It's actually very important. Additionally, you stated
that all you had to do was come up with another interpretation that
was belier and they would listen to you and change their story....
Come on Arne... .bad,bad,bad. There is only "ONE" truth, there is
only "ONE" Word, and a "truly gifted" teacher lead of God has that
"ONE" Word. Aparently you missed whaat Angela and Tom were
saying to you. If you truly believe in God and in yourself you don't
need any man (by the way man is allways nongenderous)
interpreting the Bible for you. God will lead you if you put your
nose to the grind stone. That means don't just read the Bible, but
read with understanding. you get that understanding by going back
to the original languages. Find out the meaning for your self And if
you can't figure it out then Pray for underatanding. As for as the
Trinity, there you go again. Father, Son & Holy Spirit. It's not
diffi"cult". John 1:1. Three different offices "ONE" enity. Just like
you and me. Ya see Arne I'm one enity but...I'm also many to
many different people. I'm a Son...m a Father... I'm a brother... I'm
a Friend'. on and on. That's more then three. You don't think that
God can do better than me and you??? It's not a difficult concept, I
don't know why people wrestle with it. give up on trying to make
the Word of God difficult to understand, step back and see it as a
child sees it. Listen to your Father'. your Father in heaven. He is able.
Go back to square one'. statt over. Here's your first test. Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Genesis 1:2
And the earth was without form, and void; and the daekness was
upon the face of the deep. and the Spitit of God moved upon the
face of the waters.
Now... Genesis 1:2 And the Earth was without form,,,,Let's see
how well you have read and understood the King James.
Question,,,What does the word "was'.'. really mean.
Now don't answer me back with a bunch of jargon about people,
books you've read or any other traditions of men. Just answer the
question. If you can do that then you could be on your way to
understanding the true meaning and interpretation of the Word of
God. If not.......it all yours.
19:40 on Thursday - September 18, 1997 by Tom
Hey Arne, Angela and Barry'. Appreciate your responses. I think it
ts very important to exchange opinions, even opposing ones-that is
one of the greatest benefits of leaving TWI. We got out before
"Marked and Avoided "was added to Way vocabulary. We got out
before they began kicking people out. Arne- perhaps what you
remember so fondly about your Way heydays is the People. There
were some genuinely kind people in the Way-(and I hope there still
are) but, any organization that promotes Bible study is going to
stumble upon truth. Do you really think V.P.wrote all those books?
Did he? And Arne was the research all his own? Could he have
plagarized Biblical scholars? Was his understanding of God so
much greater than anyone elses? It just seems to me that you are
still holding onto Way propaganda. No matter how warmly you or
anyone else may remember those times, TWI does take control of
peoples's minds, wallets and their identities. It is a cult!! As an
ex-member whether you call yourself that or not'. you should seek
some kind of exit help. It had a bigger impact on your life than you
may want to face. No matter how long you are out'. unless you deal
with the issues that brought you to the Way in the first place, you
are still vulnerable to that kind of controlling influence. We've been
out for almost 10 years and still deal with issues. Having no
association with the Way dosen't mean the Way is out of your life.
Take heart Arne-there are plenty of people who love God and still
search for truth.
19:50 on Thursday - September 18, 1997 by Tom
As an aside'. does anyone know what happened to old Mrs. VP, is
she still in the land ofthe living? Are there any ofex CES (John
Lynn Groupies)out there recovering? Can you believe he said he
wanted to go back and help them rebuild? I wonder what kind of
market there is or was for ex-limb leaders'. are they in high
demand?
11:34 on Friday - September 19, 1997 by Searcher
I have been reading this thread with some interest. I am currently
trying to make a decision regarding The Way and, while I too am
irritated often by LC Martindale's style'. what I am most concerned
about is The Word of God. Some have said that you are to follow
God, not men and need no one to teach you The Word. Well, I agree
you don't follow just any man'. but the Bible is contains many
examples of God's peopel following the man of God at the
time.. Moses, Joshua, Paul, Peter etc..
I Corinthians 4:14-16 - I write not these things to shame you'.
but as my beloved sons I warn you. For though ye have ten
thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in
Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. Wherefore I
beseech you, be ye followers of me.
Ephesians4:ll-l3 And he gave some'. apostles; and some'.
prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the
edifying ofthe body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the
faith'. and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man,
unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Hebrews 13:17 - Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit
yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give
account, that they may do it with joy'. and not with grief for that is
unprofitable for you.
1 Peter 5:5 - Likewise, ye younger'. submit yourselves unto the
elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with
humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the
humble.
So it seems to me that God had in mind that we have teachers and
men of God to follow as long as they are teaching and living His
Word.
**Discussion welcome'. flames sent to /dev/null**
God Bless
Searcher
11:47 on Friday - September 19, 1997 by Searcher
For Tom-- » As an aside'. does anyone know what happened to old
Mrs. VP, is she still in the land of the living?
Yes sir, she is and seems tobe doing just fine
»I wonder what kind of market there is or was for ex-limb leaders,
are they in high demand?
Practically no market for them at TWI.
God Bless Searcher
16:32 on Friday - September 19, 1997 by Barry
Dear Searcher,
Come on Searcher, you've said it all aliready. LCM's style. There
is only one Word. the same yesterday today and tomorrow. Looks
like your decission is made. In your opening para. you answered
your own question. don't follow just any man but those truly chosen
by God. Not those called by themselves but by God (Ephesiansl :4).
The problem with most "Christians" is that they all try to be so
religious... Acting religious, quoting scripture, jumping around the
Bible one verse at a time. Come on Searcher, the Bible is a story to
be read is context, from the beginning to the end. God did not waste
his time and write anything not to be studied and understood. Get in
the flow. The only way to "rightly divide" athe word of God is to
read with understanding ALL of the word of God. How....???? Let
Isaiah tell you (He's one of those men you mentioned in Ephesians)
try Isaiah 28: God says "precept upon precept, precept upon
precept; line upon line" Yes Searcher listen to men. But listen to
the men that God has given you.. those that teach the Word of God,
in the Word of God. All those that don't teach the exact Word as
written in the Bible (know them by their fruit). So your right, you
said "don't follow just any man" correct...follow those men that
taught you in the Bible.. .those lead directly by God and Jesus
Christ. Those chosen one. Paul did not have "free will" he was
absolutely knocked down and chosen... without his will. BAut Gods
will be done. Now you mentioned 1 Corinthians 4:14-16... Now
your jumping around and getting out of context... divide the word...
whats going on here a Corinth????? Paul had aliready been to
Corinth and taught there the exact Word of God. But after he left
the people started bending like a read in the wind and got heavy
into denominationalism (nothing new under the sun). The word of
this got to Paul in prison so he wrote them a letter (actually, two
letters) so what is Paul saying to them here in your quote (4:11 - 16)
??? Is he telling them to follow men or a man????? No way.....He
is telling them to follow "CHRIST" Yes he says follow me... Why
because he was a chosen follower and Apostle of Christ. So he is
not saying follow me as a man, but follow my teaching because my
teaching is that of Christ. Get it?????? Paul stated "yea have ten
thousand instructors in Christ" (get it??? 10,000 different doctrines
and false teachers... so follow me .. as I teach Jesus Christ
crucified, the true and only Word). He is not telling them to follow
men. He's telling them to follow Christ and the Word of God. In
others words stick to what the Bible says and the teachings and
traditions of men. Just like Christ told Paul and the other Apostles
""""FOLLOW ME srmple...Ya think??
Now your Ephesians Quote. Paul sent this letter to his saints (the
Elect of God) In your quote you left out some impottant stuff...
Why... It is very important to what you said.. Let's try Eph.4:5 One
Lord, one Faith, one baptism. What do you think this means???
Come on Searcher.... (ONE DROCTRlNE, ONE TRUE WORD,
ONE GOD, AND ONE TRUE TEACHER) and if you move on past
your quote of 11-13 to that ofEph. 4:14, What do we have here...
UNBELIEVEABLE........Your questions about the Way are answered
again. Don't be tossed around to and fro and carried about with
every wind of doctrine, where by false teachers lie in wait to
deceive you. You must be a fruit inspector. And in order to do that,
you must study the Word of God, With the assistance of God and
not men. The Bible is very easy to understand if you start at the
beginning and listen to what God tells you. Word of word, precept
upon precept, line upon line. GET IT!!!!! !!
Now your Hebrews Quote. Yes, please do.. obey them that have
rule over you. Well Seacher, who has rule over you....GOD......or
man.....or The TWI????????? You tell me? More importantly... You
tell God. For he knows your heatt and wheather of not you are just
playing religion. Ya see Christianity is not a religion but a reality.
Now your Peter Quote. Who is this letter written to??? Let's rightly
divide it. It is written to the scattered strangers and the Elect
according to God. Not men chosen by themselves or of themselves.
This should show you that Peter allready considers these Elect as
truly chosen of God and not false teachers. Even at that he exhotts
them just prior to your quote (something you left out again) to feed
the flock, not for money or to be puffed up, but for athe love of God
as an example of Gods true Glory. In your quote of 1 Peter. 5:5
doesn't it say bbe subjest one to another??????? Well what do you
think that means??? Check each other out, stay with the teaching of
Christ, stay with the Word, precept upon precept, line upon line,
and be humble before God and trusting in Hiis Word not that of
man. WHY????? verse 8 of 1 Peter. 5 tells you... The devil "is"
seeking those who do not stick to the Word of God as taught by
Christ. If you listen to the word of Christ the Devil can not harm
you.. EVER.
In closing Seacher, you said it...So it seems to me that God had in
mind that we have teachers and men of God to follow"
YES.. YES.. .YES...YES... you've got it. And there are 66 books
written by those men of God. It's called the Bible. Read it, beam it,
Live it. Listen to those men chosen by God. And remember if they
do not teach you directly form the Word of God, (in context) and
word for word, precept upon prcept and line upon line.....you can
and probably will be decieved.
Well Seacher thats all ya get.... I hope it helps.... the rest is up to
you and God. Good Luck with those men you seem to want to
follow... as for me.. .I will keep following The LORD.
16:43 on Friday - September 19, 1997 by Barry
To Searcher,
I left out a word in the above letter to you...
The word is "NOT"......I obviously meant to say "Listen to the
Word of God and "NOT" to the teaching and traditions of men
sorry...
16:58 on Friday - September 19, 1997 by u&ar
Arne....
Do you have the answer to my question yet?
Remember?? Genesis 1:2 the 4th word in the verse "was" what is
the meaning of the word in Hebrew? You will see that it changes
the entire context of the verse.
Something TWI "should have" tautht you the first day first thing. I
say first thing because we can all understand Genesis 1:1. Can't
we???
I am anxiously awaiting your reply.
20:44 on Friday - September 19, 1997 by Tom
Searcher. . . It seems as if you've spent considerable time with The
Way. LCM's style and arrogance used to be funny when I was
involved , but like you and others it started to make me wonder if a
true "Man of God' would display such volitility and temper over
such trivial things as a comment by a reporter regarding his dancing
(Athletes of the Spirit production) or an article by a local paper.
However, that's not important- what is is his handling of the Word
of God. Have you heard how he twists Galatians 6? He believes it
only means one thing- SEND US MORE $$!!! John 8:32 says "Ye
shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free". No strings
attached-it is a done deal. I challenge you to skip a twig some night
or not take the next class and hang on to all your money for a week
and then watch how they come in for the kill. I wish I had a copy of
a taped phone conversation Martindale had with a Limb Leader we
knew. It would make your stomach turn. This man who teaches the
Bible and claims he is chosen to lead God's people, said boldly and
without hesitation that he didn't give a f k about the questions,
concerns or thoughts the believers had in our state. In essence we
were to follow blindly, no individual concerns or thoughts allowed.
Certainly not how Jesus Christ would have answered his followers.
He taught them and cared about them Although there are several
instances where Jesus rebuked his disciples, it was with a pure love.
The conversation we (30 plus) were privy to was venemous. What
you should really consider doing is looking at these men who teach
the Bible and ask yourself where is the love, kindness, and
humility? If you are honest you will see that it has been replaced
with a love of power coupled with arrogance and a streak of
cruelty.once you do that, read Martindale's comments about the
Wapakoneta articles. Is he really making sense, is he saying
anything, or is that a forum his ego?
I just think you should take a good, long look at the men you've
chosen to guide you (Acts 8:31). You may actually find the strength
to leave.
14:02 on Sunday - September 21, 1997 by Kimberly Bean
Good day brothers and sisters. I'm the wife of an ex-Way
International, that jumped ship before Craig got goofy. He is very
interested in getting in touch with Steve and Suzy Sann. If anyone
could help us to locate them just drop us a note in this chat. My
husband is the Rev. Michael E. Bean, ordained by the Prebytarian
Church, yet still a construction worker at heart. I have printed a
volume of material from the web this afternoon to take home for
Michael to review. I'm sure that Michael will want to respond to a
number of issues that have been named. For now I will leave you
with an X-Files quote, "The truth is out there."
02:14 on Monday - September 22, 1997 by Barry
Tom,
Very nice message to the Searcher, but I'm afraid I must correct one
of your statements. I hope you don't mind.
You said, "Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you
free"... you left out And.... then NO strings attached. That's not
quite correct... In this Chapter Christ is letting the people know that
we all have and do sin and that in order to "live" they must needs to
believe in and on him (Christ). And those that do believe are of
their father Abraham (Christ's seed line, part of the Key of
David)and those that do not are of "their" father the devil. So if you
will go back one verse to John 8:31 you will see that there is a
condition that Christ stated very clearly...."If ye continue in my
word, then ye are my disciples indeed. (of Abraham) then 8:32
"And" ye shall........the Greek word . .continue (3306, men-0)=
better translated abide, to dwell, endure and be present. So ya see
the condition is that you must first abide in and live the word of
God (The True Word of God....) THEN are ye one of my disciples
indeed "and" ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you
free. With God you must allways do something first. Your payday is
not first thing Monday moring, but on Friday when the work is done.
To Lea,
Don't worry Lea, just keep saying your prayers of intercession, and
remember only God can make the seed grow. When God feals it is
time to open his eyes and ears he will. But all in due season. Be
patient.
07:07 on Monday - September 22, 1997 by Searcher
Dear Barry,
We can discuss each of the points in your reply tome here or we
can do it by email ifyou would care to write me.
But I would like to ask you one question. You say that I should let
the men of God that God has chosen, lead me.
First, in Paul's day and time when he was leading God's people,
how do you think you would have know him to be called of God? I
mean, do you think he had a halo? Or a neon sign? I think if you
look at the details of the Word closely, you will see that Paul was a
man like any other, but it was the truth of the Word that he spoke
that set him out as God's chosen man and the fruit that he bore in
his life because of God. But other than that, walking down the
street next to Paul, how would you know until he spoke? I know
there are examples of God speaking to men and telling them to go
seek the man of God. .Peter and Cornelius in Acts comes to
mind..but for most of the Word it is not that way, it is the truth of
the man of God's words that set him out as chosen.
Second, do you think there are no men of God today? Did "the man
of God" pass away when Paul passed away? Or are there people
called out to be leaders of God's people right now? And if so, by the
sheer definition of leader, there are going to be followers.
Notice I did not say that The Way leadership was the one any one
needs to follow. .this is all just based on looking into the Word of
God and seeing what it says about the minstries God has given to
His church and those He has chosen to help His people.
As for the points you made on my scripture references.. .I am not
sure if lengthy discussions on scripture are permitted here? If its ok,
we can talk more about them... if not and you want we can take this
to email.
Either way, I would like to remind you of a limitation of this forum.
And that is that you cannot see my face nor now the inflections in
my voice. So, just fyi, these words are not written with me
screaming at the computer.. .with any type of anger.
I am simply discussing these issues so we can get to the truth.
God Bless Searcher
07:13 on Monday - September 22, 1997 by Searcher
Dear Barry,
We can discuss each of the points in your reply to me here or we
can do it by email if you would care to write me.
But I would like to ask you one question. You say that I should let
the men of God that God has chosen, lead me.
First, in Paul's day and time when he was leading God's people,
how do you think you would have know him to be called of God? I
mean, do you think he had a halo? Or a neon sign? I think if you
look at the details of the Word closely, you will see that Paul was a
man like any other, but it was the truth of the Word that he spoke
that set him out as God's chosen man and the fruit that he bore in
his life because of God. But other than that, walking down the
street next to Paul, how would you know until he spoke? I know
there are examples of God speaking to men and telling them to go
seek the man of God. .Peter and Cornelius in Acts comes to
mind. .but for most of the Word it is not that way, it is the truth of
the man of God's words that set him out as chosen.
Second, do you think there are no men of God today? Did "the man
of God" pass away when Paul passed away? Or are there people
called out to be leaders of God's people right now? And if so, by the
sheer definition of leader, there are going to be followers.
Notice I did not say that The Way leadership was the one any one
needs to follow. .this is all just based on looking into the Word of
God and seeing what it says about the minstries God has given to
His church and those He has chosen to help His people.
As for the points you made on my scripture references.. .I am not
sure if lengthy discussions on scripture are permitted here? If its ok,
we can talk more about them... if not and you want we can take this
to email.
Either way, I would like to remind you of a limitation of this forum.
And that is that you cannot see my face nor now the inflections in
my voice. So, just fyi, these words are not written with me
screaming at the computer.. .with any type of anger.
I am simply discussing these issues so we can get to the truth.
God Bless Searcher
11:27 on Monday - September 22, 1997 by Arne
First, to you Barry: If God is so effective in leading people to the
truth, how come there are so many denominations, and how come
we disagree on the matter of the benefit of teachers?! If everything
can be taught directely by the spirit, why are there churches,
theological seminaries, preachers, indeed, what do we need a Bible
for at all.Come on, Barry. Worse. worse. worse. When it comes to
what the authors of the King James says , why would you bother to
read what tese MEN have to say.Be consistent, please! (It wouldn't
surprise me if they have something valuable to say, but I'm the only
one of us to who will have anything to profit from reading what
they say since you learn everthing directely from the holy spirit
anyway). And why should I, or anyone accept the concept 'trinity'
I don't have any more problems whit John 1:1 than you do. You
interpretation is inspired (no irony intended). But why trinity? Why
not the great Quadruplet, or the great and holy Quint? Or even
better: The church of the holy Hexagon. God manifestes himself in
many forms, why stop at three?! As for your question, I'm in my
office, and my Bible tools are at home so I can't remember the
hebrew word in the text. Would you consider that strange? But I
can look it up in a concordance for you if you don't have one. But
on second thoughts, that would be a waste of time, wouldn't it since
you have a direct line and won't need to concern yourself with
looking for interpretations that make the pans fit into a whole. You
know instantly and already all these things.Come on! Wake up,
dear brother. And this is for you, dear Tom: I don't care if V.P.
wrote his books himself, or if his mother helped him or if he bought
them at a flee-market or even if it was automatic writing or
anything. The point is that what he says can be tested against the
Scriptures, and when what he writes does not stand up to that test,
he's wrong. It's as simple as that. And God knows V.P was not the
Pope who is infallible (speaking of cockiness and lack of
humility!!) . There are several of V.P. 's theses that I have serious
doubts about and some of them I 'm convinced are wrong. Finally
to what you say about the Way controlling people's minds. They
didn't in my time. I criticized the Way leadership on a number on
occations. As far as I could see there was no more mind control in
that group than in any other organization be it a church, a political
organization or a family for that matter.But some people like to be
led and are therfore more easily led than others. Some people
woldn't dream of disagreeing with their pastor, or their president or
their father, and some take the pastor's or the president's or the
fathers advise to the heart for what it is worth without loosing their
