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Testimony of Jane Greene



Civil Action No.
Washington, D. C.
Wednesday, December 17, 1986
The above-entitled matter reconvened in Courtroom No. 21, at 9:43 a.m., before The Honorable Oliver Gasch. Appearances:
For the Plaintiff:
M. SHIRLEY YOUNG, ESQ., Pro hac vice
For the Defendants:

Jane Greene 797 809
Rose Anne Callahan 815
Mary Vespa 817 822
Father Kevin Joyce 845

Plaintiff's 480,482 & 483 822
" 701 825
" 702 829 831
" 703 831
" 680(a),680(b),
  680(c)&680(d) 831
THE DEPUTY CLERK: This is Civil Action No. 85-2848, Robert Kropinski versus World Plan Executive Council--United States and Maharishi International University.

Mr. Ragland and Ms. Young represent the plaintiff.

Mr. James and Mr. Ridge represent the defendants.

THE COURT: Before the jury is brought in, I will just tell counsel that one of the alternates has a bad cold and has sought to be excused. I have granted the excuse. So we now have four alternates.

All right. Bring in the jury.

(Whereupon, the jury entered the courtroom.)

THE COURT: Good-morning, ladies and gentlemen.

THE JURY: Good morning.

THE COURT: Counsel may proceed.


resumed the stand and, having been previously duly sworn, was examined and testified further as follows:


Q Ms. Greene, would you describe for the Court the status of your life in 1983? What sort of schedule did you have of activities for a given day?

A 1983, I had just started nursing school at the University of Pennsylvania. I was still meditating two hours every morning and evening plus going to school full time, plus taking care of a child who is now just barely three years old.

Q What was your diet like at that time?

A A very strict vegetarian. No meat, no fish, no chicken, rarely eggs, some cheese. Mostly green vegetables and brown rice.

Q Were you having difficulty because of that diet or because of things that you knew to be related to the diet?

A Well, my diet was low in protein. It was difficult to go out and eat any place because there weren't very many places that had that kind of food. So I was somewhat isolated in terms of my choices of restaurants. And my choices of friends, because if you'd go over to a friend's house for dinner and they were making tuna casserole, I couldn't eat it. I wouldn't eat it. It caused a lot of difficulties that way.

Q What were your social relationships like at that point?

A At that point, very limited. I had friends at the TM Center. The TM Center was essentially the source of any outside life as it were that I had. My time was mostly taken with my child to some extent -- to some extent, my child was definitely a good -- with meditations, school, and then my child.

Q And why was that priority existent in your life?

A Meditation was my path to God. As a teacher of TM, I believed that the guru is god and that in order to know god, it was totally necessary that I devote myself to his teaching.

Q Did you begin to have difficulty in school at that time?

A I was flunking out of school. I already had a degree in psychology and education, and I was flunking out in freshman chemistry and physiology classes. I had no idea how to study. I was too spaced out to focus on my books. I would try to do it. I had no idea how to study.

Q Did you question any of your friends or supervisors or checkers at the TM Center as to this problem?

A It didn't occur to me that it would be related to TM in the first place. In the second place, it would be that there was something less than ideal about my life, and as a TM teacher, my role was to always be perfect and be ideal, be the perfect student, be the perfect mother, get perfect grades, get As. I was giving introductory lectures saying to start TM and learn how to concentrate better in your work and your daily life. If you're a student, you'll get straight As.

In my life, that wasn't happening. No, it didn't occur to me to ask anyone at the center.

Q Since this was your exclusive circle of friends, did you discuss it with any of the individuals just as a friend would discuss a problem with a friend?

A No. It was -- I mean this way of thinking that as a teacher of TM, particularly as a Governor of TM, which is even higher up, higher up the hierarchy ladder, a teacher of TM has these advanced Sidhi's powers, even more was expected of me.

There was no way at that point in my life that I could admit that something was wrong, that anything was wrong.

Q What do you do then, if anything, to attempt to deal with this problem of not focusing and flunking out of school?

A I kept working harder, trying to get it together, and kept failing more and more. The more I tried, the worse it got.

At Christmas time, there was one of these big courses at MIU [MUM] [now MUM] in Iowa. It was called the 7,000 Course. They have 7,000 people come practice their flying technique and, once again, save the world from some impending disaster. I don't remember what the disaster was at that time. But it was the first of these big courses, and I thought to myself, well, maybe it's just that my stress is so high from school, that's why I'm flunking out. I'll go to this course, I'll go away for Christmas. I won't go to my parents at Christmas, I won't spend Christmas with my child, I won't go to New England I'll go to this course in Iowa and maybe wash away my stress and be able to be better in school.

Q Did you in fact go to the course?

A I did go to the course. I was gone for three and a half weeks, four weeks over Christmas break. It was miserably lonely. It was the first time that I was really struck with how far away I was from my family and particularly my child. And my child was now three and a half years old and I was missing Christmas with her.

I saw other parents who were there with their children at MIU [MUM] for Christmas time. They didn't spend any time with their kids. There was no focus on the children. The parents would get up in the morning, they'd take their children to an aing [sic] or a day care center, and they'd be in doing their meditation until lunchtime. They'd see their kids for half an hour during lunch, put the kids back in the day care until it was time for supper. See the kids for half an hour during supper, and then go off to another one of these lectures. If perchance a parent chose to spend time with their child rather than going to these lectures, it was considered being off the program and it was damaging, potentially damaging to the state of the world.

It struck me as a very wrong thing for parents to be ignoring their children to that extent. And it made me look at my life and how I was dealing with my child.

Q Were there any ramifications to the parents who did spend more time with their children?

A Emotional ramifications of other TM teachers, you know, just kind of shaking their head. I mean it reinforced another TM teacher looking at a couple with children would go see -- that's why we don't want to have children. It distract us from this path to god, this path to enlightenment. It's better not to have children.

Q And the treatment of children, the placement in the day care center early in the day and the separation, was that part of a policy or some directive?

A Definitely part of the policy. And the policy is that meditation is first and that it's good for children to be with these groups of other meditating children and learn the philosophy and the theories of this world movement run by Maharishi at a very early age. It's good for them. I'm being a little facetious here, but the movement's policy is that it's very good for the children to become indoctrinated into this teaching at an early age.

As a TM teacher in Philadelphia, my specific role was to encourage everyone to go to Fairfield, raise their children in Fairfield, be around all these groups of meditating children; that meditating children and the meditating schools were healthy, and that, you know, the regular schools back home were not very good.

Q You went to this grouping over Christmas. Did it help your non-focusing problem?

A No. I came back more spaced out than ever and, for the first time began looking at the neglect that I had been giving my child and my family, my life. It was traumatic. I began falling apart at the seams, knowing that's what -- I mean the discrepancies were too great between standing up as a TM teacher and saying there's no change in your life style, your belief systems, your diet, your habits, begin this little 20 minute twice a day and your life will be great.

Saying that as a teacher, and then looking at myself, it was my life that was falling apart, knowing that I was meditating two hours twice a day, there was this secret hidden agenda, I couldn't deal with the life of one.

Q What did you do?

A I went into therapy.

Q All right.

A My life was a wreck because I was falling apart at the seams. In desperation, a friend said I know this wonderful woman, just go talk to her. And I said no, as a TM teacher we don't believe in therapy, I don't need a therapist. Therapy does not coincide with the TM philosophy because, you know, the way to get rid of stress is to meditate more, not go some place and work out your problems. But, in absolute desperation, I did.

Q And what sorts of things did you work on in therapy generally?

A To be more functional; to learn how to take care of my child; learn how to study; to learn how to make friends outside of the movement. It changed my diet to begin being more of a normal person that I was before I started these 13 years in the movement.

Q When you say they taught you how to function, what specific things did you work on?

A My therapist would give me a newspaper, say read the newspaper every morning for a week, and come back here and you tell me what's going on in the real world. I had no idea.

He'd say go out, walk around, look at what women your age are wearing, and come back and tell me.

Go out and go to the movies with some friends, not meditating friends, makes friends outside. Go to dinner with regular ordinary people.

His whole goal was to me back out into the regular real world and away from this group.

Q What effect did this have on your life at this point in terms of changing your relationship with your child?

A I began spending more time with her. I looked at the way other mothers -- the amount of time that other mothers spent with their children, and I realized that spending two hours every morning and every evening and neglecting a three and a half, now almost a four-year old kid was neglectful. And that other mothers weren't behaving that way.

So I cut down on my meditation, and just sometimes not do as much of it. If she was crying, or if she was hungry, if she wanted some attention, I paid attention to her rather than meditation. My priorities began to shift. Rather than meditation, school, child, it became child, school meditation, a very different arrangement of priorities.

Q Did your school work improve as a result?

A It did. The first semester was still rough. I was still on the verge of flunking out. But I was moving more in the direction. At the end of that semester, the dean of our school called me in, and she said, you know, you're having some real problems here, you're going to have to repeat this year's assignments that you've not gotten and try again. So I had to repeat -- I had to repeat that whole first year.

Q Was there any pressure upon you by your peers in TM to reassume your place in the program?

A I drifted away. At that point, I didn't make any clear-cut breaks. I didn't confront any of them and say I'm

first of all, I didn't tell anybody that I was in therapy. Therapy was verboten. And if perchance I wanted to go on another TM course, if they knew that I was in therapy, I wouldn't get on the course. So I didn't tell anybody what I was doing until -- I stopped going to the center as often, began making friends outside. My friends at the center, I just told them I have to spend more time studying, I'm not doing as well in school as I thought I was, I have to spend more time with that, or I'm going to spend time with Audra. My daughter's name is Audra.

Q Did you feel any internal pressure from yourself in breaking off these old relationships with TM members and beginning this new set of relationships?

A Sure. There were times when I had conflict and guilt. I mean you have to remember that this was 13 years of my life, my belief systems which were now being challenged and changed. It was difficult. I was in therapy for two years. It was difficult, transition time.

But the rewards that I was getting outside in terms of doing better in school, you know, seeing a happy little kid at home, and making friends, and going out for beer and pizza like everybody else more than made up for it, for the guilt that I had for moving away from the Maharishi and his path to god.

Q Are you now a member of this organization movement?

A The TM movement?

Q Yes.

A No, I'm not. I sent in my resignation as a Governor of the Age of Enlightenment to the Philadelphia TM Center in August. I stopped meditating in May and handed in my resigna- tion in August.

Q What finally, if there was any one event, what finally drew you to resign?

A Life. They said in the agenda, the secret agenda of the movement, that, you know, after two years of therapy and looking at how my life was a wreck, and yet as a teacher I was saying there are no changes in life style belief system. I couldn't lie to innocent people any more and the movement about the hidden secret teachings, the Hindu teaching of Maharishi.

Q Now, you said several times that you were a Governor.

What does it mean to be a Governor of the order?

A A Governor is a TM teacher who has taken the advanced TM Sidhi's levitation course.

Q Does it give you special power or --

A There's a hierarchy in this movement. There is Maharishi at the top, there's this inner circle of innermost staff, there's wom[e]n on one course called Mother Divine course men on a completely separate segregated, each course celibate, Mother Divine women, p[u]rusha men, and their staff at MIU [MUM], staff at the local college. And teachers would be the staff, teachers who have these advanced courses.

And then there are TM teachers who have the special advanced Sidhi's powers that teach on the local level, and meditators who have these advanced courses were moving down the ladder here.

And at the bottom of the rung, there was people who meditate 20 minutes twice a day.

Q And where did Governors fit in that hierarchy?

A Governors fit in -- it depends upon what role within the organization Governors have. In order to be on one of the p[u]rusha or Mother Divine courses, you need to be a Governor. You know, it depends upon, you know, how involved a TM teacher wants to be, where in this hierarchy they find themselves.

Q Does that mean that a Governor has some certain position in this layer that you've just set out?

Are Governors, for instance, at a higher place than teachers or --

A Governors have a higher position, higher power than a TM teacher without these special Sidhis. Is that what you are asking?

Q Yes.

A Yes. And certainly in a higher power structure than a 20-minute twice a day meditator.

Q But not so high as someone on the inner circle?

A Not so high as someone on the inner circle like the Mother Divine and p[u]rusha, that celibate segregated courses.

Q At this point, do you personally have any residual remaining problems that are as a result of practicing TM?

A Yes. I'm still spacey.

Q How often does that occur?

A Several times a week. I mean like my senior faculty advisor called me into her office the other day at school --

MR. JAMES: Your Honor, I'm going to object to hearsay. THE COURT: You can't tell us what the advisor told you. THE WITNESS: Okay.

THE COURT: But you can say that she called you into her office, and you can say about what she called you into the office. But you can't repeat her conversation.


She called me into her office because I had been working on a special project, and she said that --

THE COURT: You can't say what she said.

THE WITNESS: And I'm irresponsible and I forget small but important details of the project. I'm flaky, I'm irresponsible, I forget details, important details.


Q When you have these lapses of memory, for how long do they last?

A I can literally forget an important detail. Something that would be obviously important to another person doesn't occur to me to be important.

Q And once you have the lapse, is it lost to you forever?

A It can be. Until someone else brings it to my attention, such as cases with an advisor when I realize that I really blew it. I really missed some very important points.

Q Must someone remind you of it, or might you remember it on your own at some much later point in time?

A Oftentimes, it's somebody else reminds me. I was shocked at this recent incident with my advisor when I realize how much I was flaking out in school.

Q Do these lapses have any effect on your relationship with the child, your child?

Do you forget to do things for this child or begin to do things for her and forget to complete them?

A It's gotten better. Yes, I do still forget things. I consider it somewhat of a minor miracle that I can get up in the morning, make her lunch,get us both to school on time and remember to pick her up in the afternoon. I mean I have a calendar that is filled with ticky little details, such as 2 o'clock, get the child. I mean, you know, 10 o'clock, see an advisor. I have to write down every single little thing so that I won't forget it.

MS. YOUNG: I have no further questions.

THE COURT: Counsel may inquire.


By mr. James:

Q Ms. Greene, do you find it helpful to make lists to help you to remember what you're to do?

A I have to make lists in order to remember what it is that I'm going to do.

Q I only have a few questions for you.

Did you rent from Robert Kropinski?

A He was my landlord in `82. I rented a house on a street that was a meditator community because I thought that by living in this little community with meditators, it was the next best thing I could do to moving to Iowa. He was also a meditator. I thought it would be best to live on this little meditating street.

Q Ms. Greene, I just wanted to know if you rented from Mr. Kropinski.

And did you answer that you did?

A I rented from Mr. Kropinski because he was a meditator.

Q And you paid him what, 150 to $210 a month?

A That's right.

Q And that was not a discounted rent, was it?

A It was discounted rent. If it had been a non-meditator living on that street; Mr. Kropinski told me when I was looking for some place else to live, you should live here with us on our meditator street. Usually the house would rent for 250, 260. Because you're a teacher, you can live here for 210.

Q Do you remember your deposition being taken in I believe it was last month?

A Yes, I do.

Q Do you remember being asked these questions and giving these answers at page 28, beginning at line 17?

THE COURT: Do you have that, Mr. Jackson?


THE COURT: Has it been filed?

MR. JAMES: I believe we filed it, Your Honor. But there is a copy.

THE COURT: All depositions must be filed.

MR. JAMES: Sorry, Your Honor. We'll file it.

THE COURT: Now that your associate has lent me his, I will permit you to go forward.

MR. JAMES: Thank you.

THE COURT: What is the page?

MR. JAMES: Page 28, beginning at line 17.

THE WITNESS: Mr. James, I don't remember the date of the deposition.


Q Wednesday, October 29, 1986.

A Wednesday, October 29th?

Q Yes. Do you recall being asked these questions and giving these answers:

"How much rent did you have to pay to Mr. Kropinski?

"Answer: I don't remember. $150, something like that, $210, I really don't remember."

A Mr. James, you had asked me --

MR. JAMES: May I finish the question, please?

THE COURT: Yes. He may ask these questions, but I recall the testimony of the witness was in accordance with the deposition.

MR. JAMES: It's the next matter, Your Honor.

"I don't remember. It might have been more.

"Question: Was there any discount because you were a TM?

"Answer: No, not that I know of."


Q Do you recall giving that testimony?

A I think the important thing to remember, Mr. James, my memory is not the best. My memory is shot. When you asked me, you know, could it have been more, could it have been dis- counted, because you were a TMer, I frankly hadn't remembered the conversation until you asked me that.

I remember the conversation when I was moving out of the house.

Q Now, you resigned from the movement in August of 1986, did you not?

A Yes, I did.

Q Was there any effort on the part of anyone connected with Transcendental Meditation to contact you and attempt to persuade you to change that decision?

A Frankly, I was surprised that all the friends I had for 13 years, I wrote a letter saying I no longer was going to be a Governor, nobody called. Nobody said, hey, what is going on? You've been here 13 years, now you're going, you know, just leaving, why? Nobody asked. I was surprise no one asked. No one asked. I was shocked.

Q You received a divorce, your second divorce when?

A When did I receive it? Oh, I don't know. It was two and half -- maybe `83, maybe September `83 it came -- I'm just guessing. I can only guess.

Q Is that about the time you went into counseling?

A My husband had moved out from our house right at my daughter's second birthday, and that was `82.

I went into counseling a year and a half later.

Q Did your counselor ever recommend that you stop practicing transcendental meditation?

A No, he didn't. He was very wise to not confront a belief system that was so firmly entrenched in me. Instead, he made me functional in life and allowed me to draw my own conclusion. He was very wise to do it.

MR. JAMES: I have no further questions.

THE COURT: Anything further?

MS. YOUNG: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Thank you. You're excused.

(Witness excused.)

MR. RAGLAND: Your Honor, we'll call the next wit- ness in the witness room.

THE COURT: All right.

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Creation has two sides: intelligence, which is the cause of everything, and the manifestations of intelligence, which are the physical and psychological features of the everyday world. Because Transcendental Meditation directly approaches intelligence, rather than the manifestations of intelligence, it solves problems by introducing harmony and well-being at the most basic level, and not by dealing with problems themselves. That's why it is so effective.

Consider this example: The gardener supplies water to the root of a tree. That water, that nourishment, then reaches all parts of the tree - leaves, branches, flowers, fruit - through the sap. We can think of the sap as analogous to intelligence and the green leaves or yellow flowers as analogous to the manifestations of the intelligence. The leaves and flowers are the intelligence of the sap, after it has been transformed. So intelligence - like the leaves and flowers of a tree - appears as the many different forms of manifest life. Those manifestations include every aspect of existence, from the material and physiological, through the psychological, intellectual, and spiritual. All of those features of life come from transformations of intelligence. In meditation, we directly meet this essential intelligence. Therefore, we have the possibility of nourishing all of its other levels, and thus all levels of manifestation, in a way that is harmoniously related to the whole universe.

How is Transcendental Meditation different from the various other forms of meditation?

Maharishi: The basic difference is that Transcendental Meditation, in addition to its simplicity, concerns itself only with the mind. Other systems often involve some additional aspects with which the mind is associated, such as breathing or physical exercises. They can be a little complicated because they deal with so many things. But with Transcendental Meditation there is no possibility of any interference. So we say this is the all-simple program, enabling the conscious mind to fathom the whole range of its existence.

Transcendental Meditation ranges from active mind - or performing mind - to quiet mind - or resting mind. In this resting mind, one has purity and simplicity, uninvolved with anything other than the mind, uninvolved with any other practice. In Transcendental Meditation, because we deal only with the mind, we nourish all expressions of intelligence.

The mind meditates, gains Transcendental Consciousness and brings about transformation in different fields of manifestation. All fields of life, which are the expression of intelligence, are nourished or transformed and made better through experiencing Transcendental Consciousness.

The mind, of course, is always concerned with other aspects, such as the physiology of the body, the environment, and the whole universe for that matter. But since Transcendental Meditation deals only with the performance of the mind, from its active states to its settled state, it remains unconcerned with those other aspects, though it deals with them all, because intelligence deals with them all. -- Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, unknown interview, copyright presumablyheld by Maharishi Vedic University, The Maharishi Foundation, or another group within the TM family.

Cults come in a variety of shapes and sizes. Categories of cults that are recruiting successfully today include:

Eastern meditation: characterized by belief in God-consciousness, becoming one with God. The leader usually distorts and Eastern-based philosophy or religion. Members sometimes learn to disregard worldly possessions and may take on an ascetic lifestyle. Techniques used: meditation, repeated mantras, altered states of consciousness, trance states.

Religious: marked by belief in salvation, afterlife, sometimes combined with an apocalyptic view. The leader reinterprets the Scriptures and often claims to be a prophet if not the messiah. Often the group is strict, sometimes using physical punishments such as paddling and birching, especially on children. Members are encouraged to spend a great deal of time proselytizing. (Note: included here are Bible-based neo-Christian and other religious cults, many considered syncretic since they combine beliefs and practices). Techniques used: speaking in tongues, chanting, praying, isolation, lengthy study sessions, many hours spent evangelizing, "struggle" (or criticism) and confession sessions.

Political, racist, terrorist: fueled by belief in changing society, revolution, overthrowing the "enemy" or getting rid of evil forces. The leader professes to be all-knowing and all-powerful. Often the group is armed and meets in secret with coded language, handshakes, and other ritualized practices. Members consider themselves an elite cadre ready to go to battle. Techniques used: paramilitary training, reporting on one another, guilt, fear, struggle sessions, instilled paranoia, long hours of indoctrination. -- Captive Hearts, Captive Minds, Lalich and Tobias, Hunter House, 1993.