America On-Line Hindu Forum Bulletin Boards

Betrayal of the Spirit came out in January 1997. I posted messages on the America On-Line Hindu Forum bulletin boards to advertise the book and discovered that quite a few ISKCON members were involved in on-going discussions at the site. This led to several devotees buying and reading my book and giving me feedback through the bulletin boards. These messages have long since fallen off the boards, but here are some excerpts.

The Hindu Forum conversations continue, so if you're on AOL, surf to "Keyword: Hinduism" to meet some ISKCON devotees.

Subj: Critical book on ISKCON
Date: 1/17/97
From: nori@steamboats.com

Betrayal of the Spirit (now available in Borders Books, other major booksores & campus bookstores), tells the inside story of the Hare Krishna movement. Written from an objective viewpoint, by a woman who worked in the organization's public affairs office from 1978 to 1988 (during the turbulent decade following the death of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. If you have ever wondered what goes on behind the scenes, read Betrayal of the Spirit (Univ. of Illinois Press, c. 1997)

Subj: Re:Critical book on ISKCON
Date: 1/21/97
From: -adasa@aol.com

Haribol Nandini devi,

I have gone to Barnes & Noble and ordered your book (the 'Books in Print' volume said it was 1996, not 1997). I will withhold comment on it until I read it, of course.

Allow me to introduce myself. I am -adasa, -devi's husband. I spoke to -anotherdevi a few days ago and mentioned that your book was being advertised on AOL. She said she had seen the manuscript. I butchered the name though (I told her it was called, 'Denial of the Faith', not 'Betrayal of the Spirit'). Sorry. Dumb mistake.

Anyway, I look forward (but not without some reservations) to reading your book.

I hope you do not mind my asking, but how do you feel about Krishna consciousness, devotional service, Srila Prabhupada's books?

I am sure there are a lot of stories about mismanagement and bad leadership in ISKCON that would make our hair curl. I know some of the schools were terribly run and the kids were mistreated, which is horrible.

Perhaps publishing responsible exposee-type literature will be constructive and help in the mission of spreading Krishna consciousness. Perhaps Srila Prabhupada wants us to do that. I am not being facetious. I really think it *might* be worthwhile. But I am not sure.

Can you tell us if that is how you are thinking?

Subj: Re:Critical book on ISKCON
Date: 1/29/97
From: nori@steamboats.com

-adasa, Haribol. I'm just learning about bulletin boards, so it's new to me.

Glad to learn that you will read the book. Thank you, I will look forward to your feedback.

Re. how I am thinking: I used to write the ISKCON World Review & felt the newspaper misled people, especially during the early Eighties. We put out a lot of hype, while ignoring ISKCON's festering situations, just brushing them aside. I wrote Betrayal to tell the story of what was going on behind the scenes in the organization.

I still honor Lord Krishna and Srila Prabhupada. The connection is the thing we fear losing, the thing that keeps us inthe organization longer than we should have stayed, to put up with more than we should have tolerated, and to even lie for the leaders, in hopes that the organization would pull itself together & function. The way I see it, I was codependent and am in recovery now.

Please convey my respects to -devi & -anotherdevi prabhus.

-- Nan

Subj: Re:Critical book on ISKCON
Date: 1/29/97
From: -rdasa@aol.com

Hare Krsna Nandini prabhu,

PAMHO.AGTSP.

I was wondering if you were the same Mataji who spoke in front of the GBC on womens issues with Irmila Prabhu?

-rdasa

Subj: Re:Critical book on ISKCON
Date: 2/1/97
From: nori@steamboats.com

-rdasa:

I addressed an assembly of devotees on the subject of women in ISKCON at a communications seminar in Towaco in 1988, and I wrote about that event in my book. [Ed's. note: the women's speech is now posted at Krishna Today.]

Ys, Nan

Subj: Re:Betrayal of the Spirit
Date: 2/4/97
From: -adasa@aol.com

Dear Nandini Prabhu,

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

I just finished your book and loved it. I think I am going to have to read it again before I can give you a thorough account of my thoughts on it, its strengths and weaknesses. I several times had to check the urge to grab a pencil and underline spots and make notes, a habit that I picked up in law school. Perhaps I'll photocopy it for that purpose, so I do not mess up my copy.

I wonder who will do the review for the IWR? :-)

I see it as part of the genre of autobiographical literature in which people give an account of how they became enamored and later disillusioned with some movement or institution, whether religious (e.g., Mormons, Catholics) or political (Nazis and, most especially, Communists). My favorite of this genre is Arthur Koestler's memoirs, 'Arrow in the Blue' and 'The Invisible Writing' (there is a third volume, published posthumously, which I have not read). Because he was also a journalist from the beginning, and because they are extremely well-written, I think you would really enjoy these books, if you have not read them already. He also worked for a 'house organ', the OGPU (the U.S.S.R.'s propaganda department).

While you may not be a writer of the stature of Koestler or Doris Lessing (not yet, anway), your book of course holds a more special and intimate meaning to me than any non-devotee's book could. I find many devotees share this trait with me. The lives, thoughts, and concerns of other Hare Krishnas are more interesting to us than affairs of state and other, 'big' historical events.

[Tangent: Perhaps that is part of the reason that chasing 'ISKCON fame' was such a powerful lure for some 'leading' devotees. In our self-contained world, what Ramesvara did seemed more important than what Gorbachov or Reagan or Thatcher were doing.]

The questions you raise about where the institution of ISKCON went wrong (and, by implication at least, how it can go right) are also extremely important.

At times I found myself wondering, 'What is her point'? I was looking for your theme or central argument about ISKCON, and was therefore feeling that you were placing too much emphasis on the P.R. department and the IWR and your father's perspective as a P.R. professional. It took me a while to realize that, mainly, you were just telling your story, and your relationship with your father was a big part of that story. It was not that you thought necessarily that the direction the ISKCON World Review would take was the most important question in the history of ISKCON, but it was the most important event in the history of your own devotional service, and that story of your service has very important implications about the history of ISKCON which you brought out very well.

The fact that you did not try to present the 'God's eye view' transcendental perspective is something I found to be both a weakness and a great strength of the book (if that makes any sense). You are down to earth, matter of fact, calm. You do not have any of the insane urgency or violence of the old Vedic Village Review or the rttvik-ites who are vocal here. You are not pretending to give the divinely revealed absolute truth, just your own honest account. And this is really the central theme of the book as well -- why can't devotees communicate with each other like normal people? Why did ISKCON in the '80s build these walls of taboo subjects?

Have we implanted GBC censors in our hearts? Does bhakti-yoga or Krishna consciousness involve 'faking ourselves out', tricking ourselves into believing our own propaganda?

Anyway, I am late for work, and I really need more time to sit down and try to do your book justice by thoughtfully responding to it. It may take me awhile because of my own busy schedule.

Anyway, you can count on me for 'word of mouth' among the devotees. Devotees' books should sell well. Then we could probably get more of them published. Congratulations.

-adasa prabhu,

Subj: Re:Betrayal of the Spirit
Date: 2/4/
From: nori@steamboats.com

Thanks for your preliminary review of my book & kind words. I hope other devotees will read it. The IWR declined a review copy, however the next Priti-laksanam will have an ad & a statement by me on where I stand, why I wrote it.

Nandini

Subj: Re:Betrayal of the Spirit
Date: 2/4/97
From: -mdasa@aol.com

I would prabably like to read the book also. The truth comes out eventually about things. But I am here in a temple and I dont think you can count on a reveiw in IWR, though the book may be exceptional -mdasa

Subj: Re:Betrayal of the Spirit
Date: 2/5/97
From: -vdasa@aol.com

What I found most fascinating about the book were the omissions. Perhaps these were necessary in order to keep the theme together, or perhaps they reflect that even in a relatively small population of devotees associated with the BBT Press and IOPA in New Dvaraka, there were surprising variations in perspective.

Some key players were mentioned and their perspectives shown. Many others, however, were omitted, along with others whose views and perspectives would have greatly enriched the text. Just a few of these include:

Srikanta Prabhu - a Prabhupada disciple and BBT employee, and early opponent of the gurus Kusakratha Prabhu - Sanskrit editor for BBT and IWR, and Prabhupada disciple Brhat Mrdanga Prabhu - Ramesvara disciple, and BBT graphic artist, lack-bodied and thus with a unique perspective Kirtana Rasa Prabhu - Satsvarupa disciple, wannabe kshatriya, in the heart of Ramesvara's zone. x-teen - a bright youngster who did service for IWR -- whatever became of him would tell us much about the effects of the corrosive system he grew up in.

Even BBT Press manager Rajendranath Prabhu was almost omitted -- his name appears in 'People in this Volume' and the index, but in the text to which his index entry refers, his name is oddly omitted, replaced by a reference to 'his manager' instead.

And what of temple president Dhira Krishna Swami (later Bhakti Sudhir Goswami), a key player whose relationship to Ramesvara is an important element of the way the chaos ensued. The book mentions (p. 79) a 'former temple president' who took initiation from Sridhar Swami and opened a center near Watseka Avenue.' If San Jose, 400 miles away, can be called 'near' Watseka Avenue, this may be a reference to Dhira Krishna, otherwise it is a puzzling reference and maybe even an error (could it refer to Dayalu-dulal Prabhu? I didn't know he was once the L.A. temple president. Was he?)

All in all, a (necessarily?) incomplete book, lacking so many perspectives, but still a fascinating one. As one woman's personal story it was compelling, but as a history of the true warped spirit of New Dvaraka in the late 70s - early 80s I don't think it came close to capturing the toxic feel of the place.

So many anecdotes that would have been helpful (especially to nondevotee readers) were left untold, such as when one of his disciples (associated with IWR but I won't mention the name) asked me to come over and drink some 'tea' that this disciple planned to brew... but instead of using a tea bag, the devotee planned to use one of Ramesvara's dirty socks to flavor the boiling water! Can we imagine Srila Prabhupada boiling Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's socks for tea, or does this illustrate the shift from science to personality cult that ISKCON had made?

Subj: Re:Betrayal of the Spirit
Date: 2/6/97
From: -adasa@aol.com

-mdasa, you should read it. It is not really an exposee, digging for dirt, exploiting the skeletons in the Hare Krishnas' closet (or West Virginia farm land), like Monkey On A Stick.

Unfortunately, it is hyped that way. For example, professor Shinn writes on the dust cover flaps, Betrayal of the Spirit details drug dealing, weapons stockpiling, deceptive fund-raising, child abuse, and murder within ISKON [sic], as well as the dynamics of schisms that forced some 95 percent of the group's original members to leave.'

Even the design of the dust jacket, done in an off-putting mustard and black, promises to tell us an unsettling, lurid story. In that context, the cover photograph, a news photo of Bharata dasa making dandavats on a black and white temple floor, cropped so he seems small and alone in a great expanse of floor, with his head pointed at the bottom of the picture, tells the audience it should disapprove of this kind of submission and surrender. In the text of the book, Nandini says what a nice photo she thinks it is, and how great it was that the photo was published in a newspaper story, but the cover design makes it appear sinister.

Perhaps Nandini is still caving into pressures from publishers to get her work into print? :-)

Really, the sub-title, 'My Life Behind the Headlines of the Hare Krishna Movement' is more to the point. This is more of a personal story than anything else. But because the author was a public relations officer and an editor of the IWR, the scandals that she had to respond to, and the conflict between the ways she and her bosses within the institution wanted to respond to them are an integral part of that story.

What I would have liked to see more of was the internal dimension: there is not a lot about how Nandini became convinced of the philosophy of Krishna consciousness and what that philosophy really is, nor is there much discussion of the author's struggle to control the senses and mind, which is part of every sadhaka's life (and is the *real* reason why a large percentage of original members have left). That's what I liked so much about Koestler's autobiography: not only did he live a very interesting life, but he is able to articulate very nicely the development of his own convictions.

Most devotees do not think of their their participation in the Hare Krishna movement as a career move, and I am sure Nandini did not either, but it kind of reads like that. Resigning as editors at IWR and leaving ISKCON were presented as one step for Uddhava and Nandini. Hardly anything was said about whether their convictions about the truth presented in Srila Prabhupada's books changed, or about how they viewed moving to Oregon in terms of their relationship with Krishna, or their progress in self-realization. Maybe that dimension will be more fully explored in the next book?

Subj: Re:Betrayal of the Spirit
Date: 2/7/97
From: -rdasa@aol.com

I have yet to read the book but I will lok for it. I have heard Nandini speak before. I had a tape of her address to the GBC on Womens Issues. I can't say I liked much of what she had to say (she mostly claimed there was no problem with the position of Women in ISKCON). I really find books (no, i havent read her book yet but I am speaking on the reviews I have heard thus far), essays , and 'position papers' in this mood to be hard to swallow. Anyone can show ISKCON's faults but how many actually take THEIR responsibility in the wrong doing? The GBC doesnt force anyone to comply but devotees choose to. If they later regret their actions then fine but don't make it out to 'they made me do it.'. So if one doesn't except the blame on their own heads then I don't see much 'truth' in their words. Anyhow, I would like to read the book and I hope it avoids the above mentioned pitfalls.

Subj: Re:Betrayal of the Spirit
Date: 2/11/97
From: nori@steamboats.com

-rdasa: You were there in Towaco & have a tape of my speech? Does it include the argument that followed? As I remember I was speaking about equality for women, including being gurus, giving Bhagavatam class, etc. I remember being pounced on by the organizational men there, and having my ideas torn apart. I felt extremely unhappy about the negative reception my speech received. That was one of the final straws for me as a woman in ISKCON, and I think I presented it that way in my book. It was painful to realize that ISKCON men could be so closed-minded. If anyone wants a copy of my speech I will e-mail it. (I have it on a zip disk, it's only about 3 pages, I think).

Subj: Re:Betrayal of the Spirit
Date: 2/11/97
From: nori@steamboats.com

One comment: I am sure Dhira Krishna was set up near Watseka Ave. for a while, at least a few weeks, giving initiations & everything. Later he turned up in Santa Cruz. Did anyone go to his restaurant there? It was Indian food, but totally undercover. I asked one of the waitresses if she was HK & she said NO. Later, Agnidev & Puspadanta bought the restaurant & made it successful; then sold it & bought their highly successful restaurant in Eugene, OR.

Regarding x-teen, I recently talked to his mother & he is in college at Arizona State University. Anyway, he was just a kid, what did he have to do with anything?

Re: Publisher's Hype. You should have seen the ad they put in the L.A. Times book reviews. Yikes! I'm afraid to visit Watseka Ave. now. It said something like 'Horror Krishna . . . drug dealing, weapons, child abuse, murder . . .' I complained to them because my book is actually pretty sedate.

Last week or so I have been visiting AOL chatrooms organized by -mdasa. Anyone else have time to chat? See you in cyberspace . .

Subj: Re:Betrayal of the Spirit
Date: 2/11/97
From: -vdasa@aol.com

Thanks, Nandini, for the comments.

"Regarding x-teen... he was just a kid, what did he have to do with anything?"

What did he have to do with anything? He surely suffered, and I simply expressed my concern. Kids suffered in ISKCON far worse than the adults did. At least Public Affairs had a comfy high-rent Laguna Beach place with the ocean-front view while contending with the craziness -- meanwhile, kids in Vrindaban (and to a lesser degree elsewhere) suffered more than either of us can readily imagine. They were betrayed to a degree that few adults can comprehend.

So I am happy to learn that he's apparently doing OK. Many of his peers are not.

Regarding Dhira Krishna's acting as guru: did you know that there's an eerie parallel with Srila Prabhupada's situation? At one point, there were a number of new devotees who wanted to take initiation from Sridhar Maharaj. Dhira Krishna refused to communicate their requests to Sridhar Maharaja, and insisted on making them his disciples instead. Shades of the 1977 delayed initiations, perhaps? Why let people have a connection with a maha-bhagavata when you can take control of their spiritual lives instead?

Of course, this happened while Sridhar Maharaja was still alive... Sridhar Maharaja eventually pronounced Govinda Maharaj the sole heir of his Math, after which some of his sannyasis split off and started their own separate organizations. At least nobody had the chance to wreck the Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math from within, the way that the overambitious guru-wannabes were able to wreck ISKCON.

Yes, the book was pretty sedate -- certainly it was no Monkey on a Stick. Maybe yours could be characterized as Money on a Stick given what it shows about the motives of some of the folks with whom you worked (were you as repulsed as I was by the 'garlands' made of cash that were hung around Ramesvara's neck?).

Thanks for your efforts in sharing your perspective.

Subj: Re:Betrayal of the Spirit
Date: 2/12/97
From: nori@steamboats.com

-vdasa:

How about Spirit on a String?

Subj: Re:Betrayal of the Spirit
Date: 2/13/97
From: -adasa@aol.com

I've been known to practice 'bhakti yo-yo' myself. :-0

Subj: Re:Betrayal of the Spirit
Date: 2/14/97
From: nori@steamboats.com

so you're orthodox?

Subj: Re:Betrayal of the Spirit
Date: 2/14/97
From: -adasa@aol.com

Who, me???? LOL Nandini!!!

I am sorry I have not given you further comments on the book. I have started rereading it but work has become extremely busy for me just now. I will write later.

I do not want my joking spirit to be taken as disrespectful to Srila Prabhupada or his sincere followers. There is nothing as sublime and pure as Krishna consciousness. I think we all really believe that, which should go without saying, but as this is a public message board I want to affirm that.

Subj: Re:Betrayal of the Spirit
Date: 2/15/97
From: nori@steamboats.com

Regarding Ramesvara's garlands of money: I was a brainwashed zombie then, so I accepted just about everything as normal.

One of the last things I did while in ISKCON: gave the picture of Ramesvara /with money garland/ to John Hubner for publication in Monkey on a Stick. Great shot, eh? [I think these things should be exposed, instead of covered up.]

Subj: women in ISKCON
Date: 2/15/97
From: nori@steamboats.com

Re: women in ISKCON, I'm thankful to be out of there, since I generally consider it a toxic environment for a woman's self-esteem.

Then I go stereotyping, saying 'all ISKCON men' this & that. Actually, there are many nice individual men, but there's something about the leadership . . . something that comes down from the top . . . that allows people to mistreat women & children.

any thoughts on that?

Subj: Re:women in ISKCON
Date: 2/16/97
From: -rdasa@aol.com

I dont feel it is 'but there's something about the leadership . . . something that comes down from the top . . . that allows people to mistreat women & children.' Each individaul devotee who does nothing to change this is just as guilty as these 'leaders'. What is to stop any of us from being leaders? Complacency. Plain and simple. We all have a voice and we should use it. ISKCON is not big enough to quiet any one of us. 'If you aren't a part of the solution then you are a part of the problem'. Each individual needs to accept blame and each individual needs to examine ones own heart and make a change and then and only then will things improve in the society. We make up the society and our complacency is what hurts it.

Subj: Re:women in ISKCON
Date: 2/16/97
From: nori@steamboats.com

"We make up the society and our complacency is what hurts it."

I agree, and the community would still exist, even if ISKCON (the corporations) closed down. We are a mandala of souls (at least this one lifetime). When will we ever make peace?

I've tried to forget my involvement, but how can we ever forget Krishna, once started? Therefore, we will come in contact with each other on the path to Krishna in one way or another forever.

Devotees are everywhere. Just yesterday I ran into Dasarath (temple pres. from Tucson) with some bhaktas. I've run into ex-ISKCON people everywhere I've moved.

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